2007-05-14 01:03 pm (UTC)
I see no disparity here...
I quote from the second article:
"The outrage was led by the Rev. Al Sharpton, who said yesterday he wants to meet Hughes and Cumia's bosses about the rape comments.
'My personal feeling is they should have already been fired,' he said."
So where is the difference? Al Sharpton wants them fired too. And I can assure you that my black friends that care about such issues will take extreme umbrage at it as well. Same with my feminist friends. Joking about rape is not funny. Period.
I don't listen to "shock jocks" on either side of the "aisle." I personally grew up hating them. So for me? Bleagh. No matter who they are or what they say ... so long as it is only for cheap laughs at the expense of others. The main difference is those three woman are in positions of extreme power. But even that isn't enough to redeem them in my opinion.
Ah the joys of the Friday news cycle. Dump the bad news on a Friday and it'll disappear by Monday.
Does XM have advertisers to pressure because that's what did in Imus.
I'm not sure - it's not a technology that I'm using.
I'm not disagreeing with you, because you're right. However, I suspect it may have something to do with the reasoning that it's 'okay' to talk about torturing Stalin/Hitler/Whoeveryoulike. They're bad guys.
Or something. I really don't get that kind of attitude, but I would suspect that's what it is.
See, I *do* share that attitude, more or less: my thoughts on both 9/11 and VT included "I really wish I believed in Hell." Some people do deserve pain.
But people like Stalin/Hitler/Bundy, people who deliberately committed multiple murders, are on an entirely different level than members of an administration you disagree with. I *dislike* Rice, just as I do Bush; I suspect I wouldn't weep much if she fell off a cliff or something; but I wouldn't want it to happen, and I certainly wouldn't want her tortured.
I agree. To be honest, I'd be happy if the whole chatty bunch of 'em were flushed down the sewer whence they came. Neither side promotes anything resembling reasoned discourse. It's all a bunch of noise to me.
Agreed. It just make everybody else look bad.
Thank you thank you thank you.
I am glad to see that public media is beginning to lean towards a no-tolerance policy when it comes to racism. That's great. But it really makes me choke on the ole rage when blatant and horrific sexism is ignored altogether - unless it is framed in the context of racism.
Oh, no, it's FINE to call me a whore over and over again. But when I'm a nappy headed whore. Well, that's where we draw the line in the sand.
This had crossed my mind, too - pretty much everyone here is framing this in a Republican vs. Liberals sort of context. Instead, I'm seeing it as a race vs. sex issue. "Whore" and "slut" are regularly words by radio DJs catering toward my generation (I'm 22); I'm not sure if it's something that carries over into other radio as well (must say, I've not heard it on NPR yet, haha).
Nobody had any business firing Imus in the first place. it was misplaced white guilt. Had any black comedian made the same joke he'd be fine.
And opie and anthony are supposed to make those jokes. it's their job. that's what a shock jock is. XM put them up on an uncensored station exactly so they could be crass and make vile jokes with impunity. Holding them accountable for what is clearly a joke (whether you think it's funny or not) is criminal. So I suggest everyone take all the misplaced outrage and direct it at people who are actually hurting women and people who are actually doing damage to minorities.
Side note: I heard that bit. It was hilarious. Strangely less funny is stuffy newsprint.
That's fine. That's a legitimate point of view. All I'm asking for is consistency.
Yes, this is one of those times that it's best that you're not in charge.
2007-05-14 01:36 pm (UTC)
'Scuse me while I introduce my foot to my mouth...
I don't think anything with Imus was about fairness or morality. They hung him because they could, because he was becoming costly and old. Sharpton used him for the limelight. Same old, same old. Opie and Anthony? They're getting the same attention Imus normally would of on a normal news day.
Now, maybe it's because I'm young(ish) and am just used to it since I grew up with Stern during his hay day, or maybe I can see that the hypocrisies are far, far older than shock jocks. Or maybe I'm just ignorant, but why are folks upset about this again?
Should Eddie Murphy be blocked from "Shrek" and other movies because of the crap in "Raw"? He imitated Mr. T in the act of sodomy while he was still popular, if you recall. How about Eddie Griffin with all his racist comments about crackers? How about anyone involved with "The Aristocrats"? Are you telling me some of their material wasn't offensive, or are you saying the words coming out of their mouths weren't as offensive because it was supposed to be comedy? I guarantee Opie and Anthony were laughing, along with a portion of their audience.
I'm not saying that the idiots were right, or that you have to like their material, but I fail to see how they are doing anything different than hundreds of other radio hosts. Imus shouldn't have been shut down for that one comment. He said far worse in his time at the mic. Hell, you have Rush Limbaugh calling people Commies. So what's the cure for this?
But you can shut them down. You can join with a group and begin threatening the advertisers, ... oh, wait. Satellite Radio. It's not dependent on ads, but on direct customers. Maybe the paying customers want to hear it? (Or maybe they're so used to it, they just don't care?)
2007-05-14 01:40 pm (UTC)
Re: 'Scuse me while I introduce my foot to my mouth...
It's not that I disagree with you. It's that the Imus thing was so HUGE and this is - so far - so meh. It's the hypocrisy that irritates me.
I am a regular listener to both Imus and O and A, and you are missing the big difference between the two incidences.
On the O and A show the comment was made by a guest not the hosts themselves. I also think that it wasn't such an issue
because the comment came from a homeless guy. I actually think that O and A did the right thing they said they were sorry and that
was the last we heard about it. Imus on the other hand started an "I am sorry" world tour.
I think if Imus would have just ignored what happen and let Sharpton and his people run with it looking like the asses they were, then Imus would have a job today and what O and A said would have been part of their cringe humor history.
Regardless of what was said its still a matter of censorship ( the black community being complete hypocrites and not going after their rap stars) and seeing that NO FCC regulations were broken with either one of the comments by Homeless Charlie, on a non FCC regulated program on XM radio, and not by Imus.
I find your outrage over not having a huge deal made out of this kinda sad. God we are going backwards. America is soon going to be a wasteland. America isn't the melting pot anymore its a lot of people that are getting so damn sensitive that their little ears can't take a bit of off humor and a few cringing moments on TV or the Radio.
In a world that Norman Lear wrote great show like Jefferson's and All in the family, to know that his shows would have suffered the outrage of today actually makes me sick.
"Homeless Charlie" is a regular contributor, and they followed up with the "punching her in the f...ing face" remark, so they were hardly innocent.
My outrage is the inconsistency of the reaction, not whether or not the reaction is appropriate. Either ignore both or go after both, but don't ignore the second because you don't like the woman's politics.
Just hearing of this now. Now I'm trying to remember if I've heard of Opie and Anthony before this. Definitely a repulsive unfunny joke.
2007-05-14 06:52 pm (UTC)
Thank you. A while ago I was saying, "So who is Don Imus, and why should I care?"
I have the same reaction to Opie and Anthony. Who are they, and why should I care?"
As someone in the UK, this story hasn't made it over here yet, but I'm not sure that the other story got a lot of play initially either ...
... but I will say
joke about brutally raping Condoleeza Rice (and then moving on to Laura Bush and Queen Elizabeth) , ... Clearly, only Republican women can be abused with impunity.
Last time I checked, our Queen had never voted Republican in her life (and would be very unlikely to!)
That's why she was in parentheses. I figured if I didn't mention that she was mentioned, I would likely be corrected.
I didn't exactly resolve the issue, did I? ;-)
That's absolutely horrifying.
I get really upset when liberals embrace a double standard like this - when partisanship trumps values. It happens a lot with Condi, for whatever reason. I have seen people make racist jokes about Condi, and make sexist jokes about Condi, and now I'm seeing people joking about raping Condi, and yet somehow the Imus-style outrage just isn't there among liberals. And whenever this happens, it puts me in a position of agreeing with Michelle Malkin, and that is just a position I never want to be in.
For all that liberals talk a good game about how the world isn't black and white and gray areas are so important, there are a lot of liberals who do embrace just such a black/white dichotomy in terms of politics, acting as though conservatives are the only ones whose behavior is ever racist/sexist/flagrantly inappropriate. It sets us up as really easy targets for conservatives who get to call us hypocrites, and it makes all of us look bad. I'm really glad to see a liberal calling this one out. Thanks.
Thank you. Someone who gets my point.
Dont' get me wrong I agree with you about consistency.
However, I suspect that this isn't making the news because there's no real chance of traction. With Imus, there were advertisers withdrawing and potentially costing CBS huge bucks, and that's a big story (especially to newsies, who are sensitive as hell about the editorial/advertiser barrier [or lack thereof] and how controversy can cost an outlet money). With Opie & Anthony, they're on a subscriber-funded system where explicit channels are explicitly marked as such. There's little to no chance of advertiser backlash. And honestly, there's just about no chance of subscriber backlash--nobody who dislikes Opie & Anthony will have been listening to that channel in the first place.
Hence, no news story. Hence, nobody on your F-list has heard about it... at least, not yet.
Disclosure: I am an XM subscriber. While I don't listen to Opie & Anthony, I do sometimes listen to the explicit comedy channels. There's stuff just as bad on there.
Opie and Anthony are no longer subscriber only. They're back on Terrestrial around the country, as part of the "oh my God no one's racking the numbers Howard Stern did" panic that followed his move to Sirius. Almost certainly, there's a huge number of advertisers involved with their show too.
I teach at an almost exclusively black community college, so I got to hear the outrage from the heart of the black community. The overwhelming response among my 50 or so black students was "Who the hell is Don Imus?" I just like the outrage over Imus was a bunch of whites and white advertisers being offended on behalf of a largely apathetic population.
Honestly, though...I simply cannot get worked up over either issue. I've tried, but it all seems so trivial. I'll catch the next train to Outrage-ville...which will most likely be-oh, I don't know-Lindsey Lohan related.
That is an interesting insight.
As I said, it's not this issue, it's the inconsistency.
I haven't heard about this before now.
But I am horrified and disgusted.
Count me as one liberal who isn't a hypocrite. These men are trash, pure and simple.
Like I said, a lot of people haven't heard of it.
I'm actually a little more disgusted by this than by Imus. Yeah, he insulted them, and I didn't like him to begin with, so this wasn't exactly shocking to me.
But this? They're allowed to say this kind of thing on the air? What the hell? When did raping women become a joke? Isn't this the sort of thing that is generally called a threat if you email it personally? And yet, if it is said on-air, it's just a joke or whatever.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm going to go be disgusted now.
I felt like I had to point it out.
2007-05-14 01:55 pm (UTC)
I have to ask: why is this solely about liberals? If this is not being reported (widely), is not being reported by anybody. I'm assuming here (I'm not American and not up on both cases) that all sorts of media condemned Itmus' remarks. If that's the case than (almost) everybody is failing in treating both cases equal.
There's also an underlying supposition concerning the circumstances in which these remarks were made here that needs to be looked at. If these circumstances would have been largely the same a comparison of the cases would have been simple. The question is whether this is actually the case. I'm not sure and am not yet convinced either way.
On a slightly off topic note: consistency is not and never has been men's bet trait. Research has shown that people tend to say I told you so when they have been asked to predict the outcome of an event, even if they got the prediction wrong, and be sure they actually did. It already goes wrong on a very basic level, so to speak. But that's a human trait we all suffer from.
My aim is at those who flail their arms in indignation over the political incorrectness of some things and then conveniently ignore it when it's aimed at someone they don't like. Hence, the conservative media is not my target.
Feministing had an article up about it last Thursday
The comments get into the hurdles to compliants in this case. As XM satellite radio doesn't have advertisers, there's reaslly no one to pressure to drop financial support. Thus, the only real financial liability here is losing subscribers. I doubt many of their frequent listeners are put off by it, and if someone isn't already a listener they're no loss by them boycotting the show. I may never get XM radio on principle now, but I wasn't really planning on it anyway.
It's significantly different, exposure-wise from a a much bigger name like Imus who had advertisers who wouldn't want to be associated with such speach.
As for me, due to the attitude Bush has displayed towards security, threats, and criticism, I suspect the Secret Service has it covered.
I'm both amused and horrified by the thought of a Secret Service visit to these guys. That's the liberal in me - they are disgusting, but I also worry about free speech.
2007-05-14 02:10 pm (UTC)
Re: here from ferrett
See, I disagree. What Imus said was over the top, but no one would listen to him and make the assumption that the girls in question were in fact hos based on information received. It was a vile remark, but not one that would persuade the listener as to the truth of the statement. He is allowed to voice his opinions on the standard of beauty just like anyone else. I think you are trying to draw lines where they do not exist.
2007-05-14 02:03 pm (UTC)
here from ferrett
Hmmm. I dunno. I think the difference here is that these were specific public personas who were threatened in a way that was obviously over the top. If Imus had joked about fist-raping, I dunno, Hilary Clinton and Jane Fonda and Nancy Pelosi or something, I would think it was in horribly bad taste, but in general I'd chalk it up to freedom of speech and let it go.
With Imus though, he wasn't attacking any public person--his target was a bunch of random college girls, and what's more, the problem wasn't even what he said about them as what implications it had for all other women of color or women who could be said to have nappy hair. As I saw it, it wasn't just that he insulted the Rutgers team, but that he basically said that if you are a woman who does not fit conventional white beauty standards, you are inferior.
I don't see that applying to te Opie & Anthony show, from what I've read so far.
2007-05-14 02:04 pm (UTC)
I was under the impression they'd been fired as well
Am I wrong? I've seen some coverage as well, though, I will admit that there hasn't been the blitz that Imus received.
I didn't rant about Imus in my journal. I haven't felt obliged to rant about this case, either, regardless of my political views. Am I still a hypocrite? I think personally would love to see radio purged of all such idiots, on the left and on the right, but sadly, lots of other idiots like to listen to them.
I was thinking of the wrong case. I'm still fuzzy this morning, and I was thinking of the Vandergrift and Lay case
. I'm pretty sure they've now been fired.
To be fair, it ain't ALL us liberals. I've been ignoring the Imus thing, which I think is patently ridiculous. OMG! A shock jock said something stupid! Stop the presses! :P
I don't like ANY of the shock jocks we have on the air. If I were dictator of the world, they'd all be fired and sent back to primary school to be taught some manners. But I have also ceased to be surprised by anything that comes out of their mouths. They could start praising Hitler to the skies, and I'd just change the channel. It's like a child acting up to try and get attention; I'm not even sure they believe, or even are aware of, half the stuff they say. I think they get in there and just start talking and the brain disconnects from the mouth.
That having been said, the Mills Feminist Brainwashing stirs within me. I don't think it's okay to talk about raping republican women. I think that people find it okay to talk about raping women, period. Rape has been so overused in film and TV and books in our culture (after all, every female character on pretty much any drama is eventually gonna get raped, pregnant, or both) that it has become just a word. We practically expect violence against women, and so it fails to shock and outrage.
True that it's not all of anyone. I also ignored Imus. The lack of coverage on this just irked me.
You know I saw this on the cover of the paper and honestly ? I don't care enough to protest. I didn't care enough about the nappy headed hos thing either.
There are more pressing issues in the world. But yeah this is worse than the Nappy headed hos comment by far.
As long as you don't care about both, I'm fine with that. ;-)
if my right wing buddy kmg_365 hadn't pointed it out
Right wing? I thought Ferrett said I was a flaming moderate. :)
I was trying to make you feel better after your reversion to nanny state politics the other day.
I totally agree with you...I just totally never heard this story...
It's time that the so-called "shock jocks" all go away...!